GoodFellas
We help our listeners discover what it means to be a modern man. We focus on how to heal and grow past mental, physical, and emotional traumas. The goal at GoodFellas is to provide men with the tools for us to thrive, not just survive.
Episodes release weekly on Thursday at 2am PST/5 am EST.
Throughout the show we invite the audience to meet some interesting and impressive humans who have navigated some of the deepest valleys as they journey to some of the highest peaks. Join me, Hosea Chanchez, as we seek to discover the GOOD in humanity and uncover some of the secrets to living a purpose-filled life.
About the Host:
Hosea Chanchez is a prominent actor, producer, and director, from Montgomery, Alabama. Soon after graduating high school, he relocated to Los Angeles, California to pursue acting. He immediately began booking commercial roles which kickstarted his career, where he has found long-lasting success.
He has appeared on shows like Girlfriends, Black Lightning, and All American, but is best known for his starring role as the quarterback football player, Malik Wright, on the CW/BET sitcom, The Game, and its 2021 revival.
Hosea has built an impressive career over the years and a large fanbase as a result. He started his company, A Very Good Company, in 2022 to provide black men and women with luxury products, reliable services, and quality content.
GoodFellas
Ep 102: Addiction - Dealing with Addiction with Dr. Isaiah & Dominic Blackwell Cooper
Growing up in Washington DC during an era of high crime rates, the protective nature of my father shaped my understanding of masculinity. But what really defines manhood today, especially for black men in 2024? Join us as we navigate these questions with our guest, Dominic Blackwell-Cooper, aka Dom. Together, we explore how accountability and self-awareness are crucial in shaping modern-day masculinity, and why taking responsibility for our actions affects not just ourselves but also our families and communities.
Witness the profound impact of fatherhood as Dom shares his emotional journey of overcoming addiction for his son. Reflect with us on the pressures men face to maintain facades of strength, often at the cost of their authenticity and personal growth. From my own experiences growing up to my co-host's journey of challenging traditional masculinity while raising his young son, we uncover the importance of vulnerability, empathy, and effective communication in fostering healing and growth.
Moreover, we delve into the complexities of addiction and the necessity of a support system in overcoming it. Hear the raw, personal stories that highlight how societal expectations can confine men and impede their ability to seek help. By approaching those struggling with compassion and understanding, we can promote a culture of accountability and healing. Dr. Isaiah Pickens also shares valuable insights, reminding us of the importance of community and regular self-check-ins. Join the conversation, and let's redefine what it means to be a man today.
Having a therapist is annoying, but I think it's.
Speaker 2:We are, we can be, because we want you to be better.
Speaker 3:Right, you're talking to one.
Speaker 1:But I mean, though, the annoyance being because it's still that mirror.
Speaker 3:Goodfellas is a simple mental space to heal and grow by a black man. For everyone who's listening, I'm Hosea Chanchez and this is Goodfellas. Today, on Goodfellas, we're going to take a deep dive into what it means to be a man Manhood, as we like to call it. We're also going to take a look at what addiction has done to a lot of our families, a lot of our fathers, our friends, and we're actually going to find out what we can do to help one another. We started a conversation here at Goodfellas, but we're going to give you some tools and some tips to make it through it, you and your family members. I hope you enjoy this episode, dom. Introduce yourself, brother.
Speaker 1:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3:Yes, Hi guys.
Speaker 1:Yes, dominique Blackwell, cooper government name, but go by Dom the artist, creative director, writer, producer, director, father.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know All around, all around, awesome human being All around.
Speaker 2:Does it all? Renaissance man of 2024.
Speaker 3:Yeah, how are you doing today, doctor?
Speaker 2:I'm doing great. I'm doing great. I'm doing great. I'm loving the energy right now because I think this topic of manhood and understanding how we show up is so important for us, because we have to navigate so many different spaces and also being a black man is one part of so much of what we are.
Speaker 3:And so how?
Speaker 2:does that touch all those other parts? The father, the brother, the protector, the healer all those things, how do you carry it all? So I'm excited to learn from Dom. Tell us, tell us how you do it.
Speaker 3:So that's a great way to enter this conversation, because the basic question I think we have is what does it mean in 2024, now? What does it mean to be a man? I know, growing up, what it meant to be a man for me and my family. It meant hard work. It meant taking care of your bills, your responsibilities, your family. You know being kind and loving to the people that you meet. You know showing up for the people who love you and who you love, and just an all around responsibility is what it meant to be a man. And today I feel as if, in some ways, the identity of manhood in itself I won't say threatened, but it is challenged, and so many different variables to what it means. So I'll start with you, dom, for you before we dig into your story.
Speaker 1:What does it mean to be a man to you? Start with the easy stuff, start with the light work. It's easy to it. A word that comes to mind that's very, very much when I look at manhood now is accountability, and I really feel like, if you can look at it holistically, I think it kind of comes back to that word. I think what you were saying is bills, it's this, it's showing up, but a lot of that just centers around accountability Without going too, far into it.
Speaker 1:I know we have a whole conversation, but there's getting approached by people or getting into different conversations and they'll be like I can't believe you do that or I can't believe you know. This is what your reality is. I'm like it's holistically about being a man. I'm getting to be a middle-aged man where it's like, well, that's just what it is. It's about being accountable to the choices I've made, the choices I haven't made, the choices that I'm going to make, but it's also making those decisions and being accountable to them. So I think manhood in its whole to me is about accountability.
Speaker 2:I love that. That's beautiful. That's beautiful and I think so much of accountability is being accountable to yourself right. Not necessarily always needing someone else to push you to do the things that you need to do in your life, and you know, as you were talking about, all the different forms of accountability that we have as we get older.
Speaker 2:I think part of what happens with manhood, when we really lean into it, is that definition starts to expand because the things in our life that we need to do, that we need to be accountable for, becomes greater and the stakes become higher when you start to think about taking care of other lives, when you start to think about taking care of your family and the bills and all that. They mean something more than just what's in front of you. It's also talking about the legacy that you're building beyond you, and so how are you holding yourself accountable to that? And I just love that. Start with accountability.
Speaker 3:So what does it mean to you to be a man?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. For me, being a man is really about being able to look yourself in the mirror and see the truth, without wincing in many ways, and really being able to sit with that truth. Because I think sometimes, when we look at what's happening in society and to what Dom said, people are running away from their truth and they're doing it in a way that really makes them hide not only from others but from themselves, and so the moment you can stare into the mirror, see the cracks, the flaws, the gifts, see it all without that ego, without anything to filter it, and really sit with that and move forward authentically in life with that to. To me, that's what it means to be a man.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So an authentic life is what we can surmise that to yeah, yeah, I would say an authentic life that really pushes you to tap into all of the gifts that you have to give to the world Right, and so I think that is what it means today. I'm hoping that's where we're going in terms of what it means to be a man.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, it's going to probably mean something different to every man. I think that's what this conversation will probably unfold for us is that it means something different, but all of our excuses or reasons for being a man are very married. Yeah, because I would say responsibility is what I described as manhood, accountability and authenticity. Yeah, because I would say responsibility is what I described as manhood, accountability and authenticity. Yeah, so that's actually a really awesome trifecta that we'll come back to at the end of the show. But I also, too, want to know what you guys feel.
Speaker 3:What is our role in society? For me, growing up in Alabama, our role in society was to uplift the community, to basically be the foundation which we'll talk. I'll talk about that too, because I do believe that women are the foundation of humanity, but we were taught to be the foundation that the rest of the home is built on, in order for your family, your daughter, sons they're all representing walls in a way and in order for them to support the roof, which is their generation, you know and so and it just repeats itself so the foundation has to be strong, which is what I always identified manhood as in society. But now that we're here and now that you know, so much has changed with um with our culture. We're here and now that you know so much has changed with um with our culture, what does it?
Speaker 1:mean in society. There's a little bit more fluidity to it, there's a little bit more molding and wet clay that goes along with modern day manhood. I think that there's different things that we would never expect to be identified as oh, that's masculine, or that's manhood. Or, for a better example, like I said just getting into certain parts of the conversation, like I'm a single father and it's one of those things where the roles that I take on it's very interesting the, the juxtaposition or dichotomy whichever the proper word would be to his mother and I. Where it was ironic is he does art and like more philosophical things with me, facetime them the other day and she's at the park playing baseball with them, and it's like the traditional roles aren't quite.
Speaker 3:They're switched in a way.
Speaker 1:They're switched in a way, but it's because I have a sensibility towards art and sensitivity and you know, like things that, that I'm already drawn to. And it's when you say, like you said, the foundation, I think it's always there, it is core principle, but I don't think it's as rigid as it once was, but it's like. This is what it means. It's almost like well, let's be open to the ideas of of what manhood are in society because I think that's what kind of stifles us in a way part of what I was thinking about manhood today is freedom.
Speaker 2:Freedom to express in a way that we haven't been able to express ourselves before, based on what we need, that's in front of us, like your example is great now because you know, naturally you're an artist and you're uh, the mother. Your child wants to play baseball, and in the past we had to stick to certain roles because that's what was expected of us, and today I do see both that fluidity and also I think there is a space to have a little less pressure to show up as the man that others think you should be.
Speaker 2:I actually have a lot of friends who their wives are the breadwinners of the home. They actually are not making as much money or they're just staying home with the kids and their wives are taking care of things and what they figured out for their life. That's what fits for now and it both helps the wife not feel pressure because she didn't want to take care of a lot of those child at home responsibilities and the father naturally was inclined to that. And they were able to have that space to move around.
Speaker 3:You both mentioned slightly masculinity. You stopped yourself, Dom. You said it, and that's one of the things that I want us to talk about is is masculinity, manhood.
Speaker 2:That's a great question, you know, and should we be?
Speaker 3:yeah, using them interchangeably as if they're the same thing, are they?
Speaker 2:I I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say no, I think masculinity is a way of showing up that allows you to, you know, deal with the hardships of the world. You know, we traditionally think of masculinity as kind of the stronghold, the thing that is sturdy, and femininity is the thing that is lighter and connects more with the world in more fluid ways. But I think when you start to put manhood, make it synonymous with masculinity, you lose the opportunity for manhood to expand to the point where you can do things like we've been talking about here, and people talk about toxic masculinity and all of those different ways of showing up.
Speaker 2:I think there's some validity to that, but I also think that masculinity is a beautiful thing that we all should have access to, whether you're a man or whether you're a woman, all should have access to, whether you're a man or whether you're a woman. And so, for me, if we put manhood and masculinity together, then it becomes a situation where people aren't free to be themselves. I'll give you an example. I grew up in Washington DC, and I grew up during that time when DC was the murder capital of the world, and so I my dad Also currently.
Speaker 3:It's a little bit, but it's still like come on. Yeah, it usually goes back and forth between you two.
Speaker 2:But I remember growing up there and there was a basketball court that was down the street from where I grew up and my dad, super protective he grew up in Philly, he dealt with his own things right.
Speaker 2:So whenever we went to this basketball court he was like yo, be on point, make sure you're looking around, hands on a swivel, you're doing X, y and Z right, wow, and so I was there as a kid Went back, you know like five, six years ago and as I was there, it was a beautiful park actually and I was like you know what, I feel like I want to get a little workout in and I do my workouts there and one of the moves in the workout I was doing it was like this like a kind of fluid, like kind of almost yoga move and because of how I was raised, I was like I'm doing it like this.
Speaker 2:I'm doing the move like this, so nobody knows it was really good here, and and and I say that to say that that, no, it was really good here, and I say that to say that that idea of masculinity looks one way, or being a man is one way. It kept me from doing an exercise that actually was I'm fine, everyone's fine, but it held me back, and so that's why I think, when we start separating the two out and you can say I'm still a man, but I'm doing it this way, I'm doing it a different way, that's what I think gives us freedom to really show up differently, and show up to our potential.
Speaker 3:Yeah, now that we're talking about this, I think that masculinity has been the problem the whole damn time with manhood, because we've intertwined the two things, two things. And as we unpack this, one thing that's really obvious to me is that a lot of what it means to be a man has been wrapped up in masculinity.
Speaker 1:I think masculinity is a lot about presentation too, and that's not how you present yourself, but meaning, like you said, it's things that are societal markers that say this is a masculine thing. The way that I was behaving as an artist was things that I thought were appropriate to becoming pavo picasso or, you know, f scott fitzgerald or ernest hemiway I thought it was drinking I thought it was women.
Speaker 1:I thought it was the sensibilities that like this is masculinity, not manhood. Like I said, it's not about being accountable, but this is what men do, or this is what a masculine presence I gotta smoke cigars, drink whiskey yeah and it's interesting.
Speaker 1:Now I have a two-year-old boy named fox who is going to grow up and be a man. His favorite color is pink, he spends a lot well, he spends the weekends with his mom, but I mean he spends a significant amount of time with her as well and I see the traits of that would be the softer, more delicate feminine traits, and it's trying to click that thing off in my brain to go.
Speaker 1:That's not Right and it's like because this is something that's a learned behavior of what's masculine, but realizing, if I look inside of my own life and go, okay, well, if I was able to identify this in my youth or coming into adulthood, or manhood, responsibility, accountability, things like awareness, why was I able to point this out? Now I have this chance to like watch this young man grow through his entire life, or as long as I'm here for it, I'm going. Well, there has to be a step off the brakes, like you said. It's like why don't you do that yoga move? He's going oh, is it other people's?
Speaker 2:perception of it. Yeah, exactly, or is it? How I actually feel like and and I think for me part of what it was. Is it threatened my identity as a man?
Speaker 3:so so it was, it was that intertwining.
Speaker 2:I think we're so conditioned to think people not only people won't think this about us, but start to question yourself. And I think this idea of um masculinity, and toxic masculinity in particular, it comes from a place of feeling threatened and not safe being the kind of man that you may naturally want to be like getting back to the authenticity. I start getting defensive right and and I and I start protecting things that I I don't even need to protect like yeah, you know I'm good, why are you being so extra?
Speaker 2:like I'm just just be regular and and it's that feeling, a threat that I have to this important part of how I see I should do it, and I think once for me, part of and this this probably gets a little bit deeper part part of for me that started to break, that is, I had to start challenging my own father and the way he was teaching me to be a man which I love my father, I love dearly he he protected me, raised me and also his perspective of manhood is very much aligned with what it looks like to be traditionally masculine yeah
Speaker 2:and and when you have that as someone who you love and admire and is also not giving you space to try other things like you think you might want to try in terms of what it means to be a man, um it, it either kind of crumbles you and and in the sense that I'm going to just kind of do what this person says or it builds something up in you to to take some risk and to challenge that and and see if there's something different and hopefully in that process you not only grow but you potentially teach those people who have been teaching you your whole life. And I see that in my dad.
Speaker 2:now I see my dad opening up to things that you know I think he never would have thought about when he was younger, because I took that risk.
Speaker 3:We're essentially in today's time, we're dismantling what manhood is, and that's the fight that a lot of our young people and a lot of us and older people especially older people are having. I personally have seen, um, you know, with my grandfather being his caregiver and being very close to him at 94 I've seen literally what a man, what happens to a man when he loses what he's identified as his manhood, and those are the parts for my grandfather and myself that break my heart the most, because I know that a lot of his worth has been wrapped up in his being able to provide for all of us, his entire family, and the beautiful part of that is us dismantling what it means to him and me learning about manhood through having compassion for him and seeing how he is changing, being able to trust me with his life, because he's no longer, you know, the breadwinner in our family and he no longer is able to do things for himself like he used to, and that's what he identified with as being a man. Now, my father personally, which is the foundation, as we talked about, of where most black men learn what it means to be a man I think we've all kind of agreed on that. My father was an absentee father because he was an addict. My father was a drug addict and so because of that and is still an addict our family has been really ruined in so many ways because of his lack of attention, care, compassion, empathy, manhood and his ability to not be able to teach us, his children, what we needed to do in our lives. Hence the reason why my grandfather raised me, because my dad wasn't available mentally, spiritually or physically because of his addiction.
Speaker 3:Dom, one of the reasons you and I are really good friends is because not only of how compassionate you are, but the type of father you are. You literally went through some very challenging times in your life and, because of your child, you made some life changing decisions in your life, which is completely the opposite of my father who, because of his kids, he drug more into his addiction, but you, on the other hand, are living your life in a completely different way. So will you please share a little bit of your story with everybody about your being a father and how that led you to your sobriety because of your son?
Speaker 1:I saw an opportunity to. We'll go back to the word accountability. There's a lot of sense of nonchalance. When you're able to make art, make money, party women, travel, like all that type of stuff comes into play, and you know this. We've worked together, like I said, a lot of years. We've been friends for longer and I spent a lot of time drinking. There was stints with drugs on and off and things that don't want to give power to anymore, but alcohol was obviously the number one proprietor of my good behavior and bad behavior, like I think that what happens is is you kind of can't unblur the lines of where the success is or what's feeling, what it's natural ambition, natural talent, but then never knowing is it the booze or is it blackwell like? Is it which one?
Speaker 1:is which one's really in control right now and before fox, my son, was born, I had looked into oh shit, I know something's wrong.
Speaker 1:Like I know, I'm off and it's getting to the pressure points of like I'm not failing at anything, but something I learned to to skip ahead was when I went to a rehab facility is nothing bad was happening yet, had the money, had the you know, his mom, wonderful woman, had family, friends, like things that people who love me, another woman who loved me dearly, like you know, I mean like places of comfort, places of safety. But it's like I couldn't get past my own self and so when I looked at how it's going to be present I think was the best word is I realized alcohol, because that's all that it was was closer to when he was born, was alcohol was keeping me so disconnected to the point where it's like to share something super hyper personal. It's like I'm going to see what the hospital is that he's going to be born at. We had done like a midwife situation. She had wanted a midwife situation through the ucla program, whatever, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Just just in case people need reason, meaning that we had to go to this hospital to deliver this baby because of this insurance policy that I had. Blah blah blah. I remember missing a turn, knowing where the hospital was so that I could scope out where the closest liquor store was, because if I knew. I was gonna have to spend time here wow no fucking way I'm sitting this.
Speaker 2:This ain't no way I'm gonna sit in this right hospital all this time, all this time, but these were all the appointments.
Speaker 1:Are this where I know this is a new factor, a new place? I have to be? I think that's when I first started to set in. I was like, wait, is this a problem? Like, is this something? Is this something that's going to be a problem, going into my son being born? I have to be very honest about the situation. I didn't stop drinking the second that he was born, but it was within those first few weeks of. I don't have a responsibility to this little boy, who has none of the trauma that I have and I don't use that lightly. I mean, like he doesn't have the decision making. This ain't my life, ain't got nothing to do with his. That doesn't start from the day that he's born. So now this clean slate and I'm already starting this slate off being selfish. I went. I know what the problem is, or I know where the tension point with his mom and I are. I know why. My friends, they don't say it, but they kind of they kind of like you know you don't clean it up, but you
Speaker 1:know yeah something I learned was nothing was wrong yet, and so I wanted to get ahead of it, and so that's why I made the choice was okay, let me go see what sobriety looks like. And in that way, to be truthful, it wasn't, it was a full-time thing. It was like I'm gonna stop drinking, I'm gonna stop doing drugs, all this stuff. But I went, at least I'll know now, at least I'll know what the baseline is, at least I'll know where I am and then I can start to make decisions that I feel are best and not some blurred, I don't know. It was realistically when I had to fill out the birth certificate and I was a little, a little hungover and I'm like, am I spelling his, his name? But then I'm thinking what if I messed this up, like it was just one of those decisions that I felt was necessary and encourage a lot of people to do it.
Speaker 1:I don't know what everybody's capabilities are, but it's been a much more enjoyable experience and not having time spent away from him or taken from him because I want to drink and I do have him five days out of the week, and I always think about that. I'm like what if I was trying to piecemeal in drinking sessions, yeah, with him. Yeah. Or having to call his mom and be like, okay, I'm getting, I got a, I got a meeting to go to, when really I'm like I just want to go drink. I'm like why would I take away from that experience I had with him? If it's just okay, it's not gonna be as wild of a time anymore, I don't know wow, yeah, can I ask you a question, though?
Speaker 3:how did you get out of it?
Speaker 1:you start to look yourself in the mirror and go oh, this isn't. I don't like who I'm seeing right now. But I think what it was was when I realized that I no longer had authority over my mental, especially physical was fine. I was a very high function, we know this. You and I people were close to me. I was very high functioning. I just got to a point where I said this is enough. And it became where all the friends who were trying to help started to peel back. Then you got all the family peeling back and they're not doing anything negative. It's just kind of like hey, man, if this is what you're going to do, this is going to be on you. And it came to a point where I'd fallen asleep with the baby and it was one of those things where it jars you awake because you're going oh, it's not about me anymore.
Speaker 2:Like this isn't about me like now I'm in such a selfish yeah.
Speaker 1:Space in my life that I'm really picking a delayed hangover, delayed gratification. I don't know why I'm drinking but I need to go figure this out, because this little boy doesn't deserve to have a father who's not present. This little boy doesn't have a father that is short-tempered or and especially now I look at it with him being with me so much he's always, for the most part, with me, or out and about or at events and stuff.
Speaker 2:Having to learn patience, having to learn compassion, having to learn empathy. When you were talking about people peeling back, something that came to mind for me was was that a moment where you felt like your manhood woke up, because you were almost having to be independent now, with the life that you're responsible for?
Speaker 1:I got a phone call from a very close friend, uh, actor buddy, who have a lot of mutual respect for, and he's got a daughter and when the drinking, you know, three weeks into my son being born, he goes shit ain't the same, no more man. He was like you got to be a man, you gotta stop this shit. That's all right, like you know, and it didn't sink in until getting help and getting healed. But what he was saying was like I'm recognizing that, you're not recognizing something. Let me put it to you in the simplest of terms it's time to man the fuck up. Yeah, and when you have to hear it, and it's jarring because, to your point, it's like well, what part of my manhood are you coming for? What part of me is off?
Speaker 1:because, like I said, the bank account that's full, everybody's taken care of, everybody seems relatively happy. But then you're going well, why is this being called out so many times like man up, step up, and you're like I'm paying for everything, what else I gotta do, and it's like, oh no, I'm not being the truest or most authentic version of myself because I'm allowing this poison to literally bring me down and not be in a present state all the time.
Speaker 3:So so many of our experiences are engulfed in fathers and in leaders and addiction. It's something that is very prevalent in our communities, and all communities, but specifically ours is. It's a very prevalent thing and it's everywhere now, everybody's. You know smoking weed or you know popping pills, and it seems that for us particularly, it feels like in some ways ingrained in our culture. Isaiah, have you had any specific instances in your life where you dealt with addiction in this way?
Speaker 2:I mean, I have been someone who's always been drawn to the risk in life and to try different things, and that's part of what caused the clash between me and my pops. I come from a very strict Christian household where you don't you don't need to say anything else, you just don't Right Period, you just don't Right and I'll never forget.
Speaker 2:I was my first year of college and I was hanging out with some friends. I went to college in DC, near where my parents live, and I decided I was young when I started college very young, 16. And what I decided? I was going to take my first drink, and I said that's the thing I'm going to do right now and I'll never forget. Later on, my pops told me he was actually sitting on the campus watching me as I was doing this thing, because he wanted to protect me so much, but at the same time, he had created a space where I didn't get a chance to explore life myself, and so I felt this urge to take risk in life, to try things. Now I haven't personally been addicted to anything and I think, as men, when our definition of man is doing it on your own, it becomes so much harder to get away from addiction, and that's what I heard from you when you said he said man up.
Speaker 1:Right, he said man up. I think there's something to your point that I would. I used to describe it as a roller coaster and I think that's such rudimentary way of explaining it, but as a storyteller it became the chase, the high, the fall. Like you become addicted to that narrative. I need to chase the drug.
Speaker 1:Once you can start to identify what those problems are, you do need a support system around you, but it makes it really hard because manhood says you got to stand, put these boots on, step out into the world this is your role, this is how you got to present and this is you don't get to, you don't ask for help.
Speaker 1:That was the craziest thing is, once I started asking for help and once I admitted I needed help, the resources flood in. I think society so much will sell you, you you have to bury it and there's so much shame that comes associated with addiction. I'm like I found it easier to just be drunk than have to sit back and look at why the hell I was drinking.
Speaker 3:And so the shame of like okay, if I create my new.
Speaker 1:We talked about baselines earlier. If I just create a baseline of being buzzed all the time, then I never have to go and self identify with what's actually wrong. Or am I jealous of somebody else's career? Or am I unhappy with where I'm at right here or if I'm going? Or am I mad that these people are jealous, like you? I'm using jealousy as a random example.
Speaker 2:Right, but it makes sense. But it's actually not random for us to make sense, because that's where you start comparing yourself and I'm like but, what am I comparing?
Speaker 1:So then I'm going, well, what am I unhappy with? But then you don't answer those questions because you just hit it at the bottom of the bottle and then you're like, well, now I just got to get to tomorrow.
Speaker 2:You're just numbing the pain, so it's a cliche cycle of numbing pain, but I think part of the fear is that if you get the answer to that question, you don't have anything to meet the solution. There's nothing that can solve it. That's who you are Right, and, and, and I think that you know what am I running from when you sit there and you look at the thing that you're running from and it seems too big for you to overcome. That is terrifying, and so I'd rather just sit with what I know the devil I know.
Speaker 3:Sometimes it doesn't go away. We just transfer it to another thing that maybe other people don't see. Or oftentimes people trade substance addictions for yeah, I got one for you when a son's born, go to rehab, get out.
Speaker 1:And something that's very key and important to what you said is having a plan. People don't have a plan. They want to go and try to battle against something or get over something or get through something without a plan or without having a support system. But I got a really good therapist. Uh, annoying, having a therapist is annoying, but I think we are.
Speaker 2:We can't be because we want you to be better.
Speaker 1:Right you're talking to one, but I mean though, the annoyance being because it's still that mirror, it's still a reflection, accountability, you hear it and you're going. Well, that's not what I said. It's like, yes, you yes you did.
Speaker 1:I'm telling you, I'm responding to, you, know the information, and then you realize this person doesn't know me, they only know the things that I'm telling them. So they are giving, giving it back to me. And she had a really good point because you know, she was there for addiction, an addiction specialist, and I'm calling her one day and I'm going oh, I'm about to do this new job and here's the price point of it, and it was a gig and it was lucrative. And she goes and I'm like, but I'm going to keep my other job.
Speaker 1:I'm going to do this, maybe, and then I'm gonna start this and she's going. You're just transferring the energy of the addiction she goes.
Speaker 1:You're not addicted to the alcohol, you're addicted to the thrill of the stakes and because you have to push the stakes so much that you're willing to go and see oh shit, how far can I push now that I have calmness and stability, now that I'm out of rehab, now that I have a relationship with my son? There's not enough. I don't have enough tension points. It was something you said earlier. I had to learn how to be comfortable in the calm and just go nothing's wrong.
Speaker 1:All the bills are paid, my phone ain't ringing, whatever, whatever. But I had to learn very quickly. I did the exact thing that they tell you is going to happen. They're like you don't get out of here. It's either going to be a woman, it's going to be some money, it's going to be be another drug, it's gonna be another addiction a lot of people. It's exercise a lot of people. It is pornography a lot of people becomes. Like you said, the gambling is one you have to really watch out for, because you need that like that rush, that rush yeah and I'm like I'm not addicted to work and she goes.
Speaker 1:I'm listening, that's all you talking about yeah she's like I'll hear you one time say nothing about your son. I'm like, well, I'm not calling you about my son, but you're calling me about things that are important to you so she goes. So is this what it's going to be? Now you're going to go push yourself and throw it into work so the hours you used to spend drinking are now just another gig.
Speaker 1:She's like you could do all this, but you're not carving out time to be a present father, because that's what the goal was and I shit like not wrong. So it's to your point. Like a lot of people, we just transfer.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Transfer somewhere else. But you got to be self-aware at a certain point and go okay.
Speaker 2:I think, the more that we come in full circle to this idea of masculinity and think it means that I have to look strong at all times, it opens up a door for us to really think we can take on addiction ourselves or it's not going to overcome us and let's see how far we can go with this, right, because I am the man, or I am a man in some way. So I was just wondering if for you at all, during that you know journey in that moment and like how far can I push it? How much did that, you know, intertwine with how you were thinking about yourself as a man or the man?
Speaker 1:I think it played a lot into it because I think again, I think when you aren't self-satisfied you look for the outlet. So I think with drinking it becomes there's a comfortability I'm not facing the things that I actually need to go work on, I'm not doing the things that I actually need to go do. It makes you more comfortable socially. It makes you more comfortable shit in the work environment. Like I said, I was functioning, so it wasn't like I wasn't drinking, it was just let me go, let me go do these things. To to kind of blur where I should be or what reality I kind of should be focusing on and and I think what happens is, is that feeling of being the man, it overtakes and you.
Speaker 1:First you have to convince yourself, and then the goal is to convince others. The issue being is, when you don't really have anything to offer, at that time you just start changing people's reality for no reason. And that's when it started to become a little bit scary. Because, again, I remember one time I started perfect, perfect thing, we had lunch. I was so hung over and I had to drink to go to a lunch with you. It was the French joint that used to be by my place.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, sunset Plaza yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm like, oh man, and I remember Jose being like he smelled like liquor and I was like, oh, it must be my shirt, opposed to having an honest admittance of like no, I'm going through a hard time right now. I'm struggling with some things, but it's, it's. But I need to have a projection of everything's good, because I don't see him on a daily basis, so I don't want him to think this is who you are, this is who I am.
Speaker 1:Yeah even though it's fully who I am right, this is who I drink like this is this is a problem, but it's like, oh, I can't, I can't be vulnerable so you're hiding, you're hiding, you just hide, because what's the question?
Speaker 3:you?
Speaker 1:always start with friend. How you doing, yeah, yeah yeah in our industry.
Speaker 3:It's the culture. You know what I mean it's. It's it's an artist's survival in so many ways, to take a toke or have a little glass of wine, or so you don't think about you know, maybe this person has a problem that they can't handle. I'll tell you no, until you miss some deadlines or something like that.
Speaker 2:And it's like wait what's happening.
Speaker 1:That's fair, that's normally what it is you fumble in the bag.
Speaker 2:Where's my script?
Speaker 1:It's normally the deadlines that kind of get you caught up, but something that's always interesting I never thought about. But I remember going to the rehab facility and you, I'm going in there and I'm like, okay, I'm about to be in here with a bunch of junkies and a bunch of you know low lives and pieces of shit and people ain't got their act together and I want to tell you, everybody in that place was clean, cut, rich, wealthy. A doctor had a doctorate.
Speaker 3:Boujee ass rehab Wasn't a doctor I mean there was a practicing.
Speaker 1:They were you, they were me, they were a practicing lawyer, a practicing lawyer there was another famous artist in there and you go, oh, like, this is the face of addiction. Like you said, this is so normalized that the ER doctor during COVID has a pill problem. The rich, wealthy investor dude can't stand the fact, the reality of facing his wife and kids, so he goes to his yacht to go drink. The writer director, who is sitting in his own head and not putting the stories out into the world, is drinking, to kind of quiet the extra voices and you start to realize, oh, like that, everybody is the same or going through some stuff.
Speaker 1:But the healthiest thing when you get there is they go. What do you, what do you say when you first get there that hi, my name is dom, I'm an alcoholic and it's that first admittance to. And you go, why can't I just tell my, why can't I tell these room full of strangers this? But I could have just gone to my friends and been like, hey, man, like I'm gonna need some help, or watch my back for a second, or you know what I mean like yeah, you know I shouldn't be drinking at 7 am, like, oh, understand that it's a problem, but you don't want to face the fact of why am I having a problem?
Speaker 1:Maybe I don't like the relationship that I'm in, maybe I don't like my job, maybe I don't like the fact that I am taking a huge risk, because that's what it is. Sometimes, you know, I go into projects. Sometimes you have to start with that reality sets in you like, well, I'm deep into this, like I got to go through with it. And sometimes you're like, well, let me have one drink. And then I always say my problem wasn't the first one, it's the sixth one, it's the ninth one where you're like, okay, now I had too many.
Speaker 3:My story with addiction. It did quite the opposite of what it did for you guys, but it still created a huge problem for me in my life and growing up, seeing all that he put my family through and himself through. More importantly, because I loved him and love him, it made me want to be nothing like my father. What it did for me is it made me very rigid rigid for a long time, but made me very, very rigid and regimented in my life and it made me put up boundaries for everything. Anything in my life that felt like addiction, I got rid of it. If I had gotten too close to a girl, I got rid of it. If I'd gotten too close to a guy, I got rid of it. If I had, you know, eaten too much, I stopped. I had been up until about three or four years ago, like right before COVID, I had been so regimented and rigid in what I would do, what I wouldn't do, because I didn't want to be connected to anything that I had to have, because I saw what having to have something and not having control over that it did for my father. So for me it was quite the opposite, it ran me away from all the accountability and responsibility in my life and anything that felt too consistent, felt too repetitive, which was too close to addiction for me. You know what I'm saying. So it affected my love life probably the most not trusting people that you know I had given my heart to, and and friends, and you know, people that I'm close to I had always had this much like a kid who parents leave. In a way, there's this wall that you put up with people because you need to control your outcome, like I needed to control my outcome because my father was out of control his entire fucking life. So for me, what that meant was, you know, tighten up on everything. But life is outside of that.
Speaker 3:Like I said, until about four, maybe five years ago, I had been so rigid and regimented in certain things that I really just started to live my life.
Speaker 3:I stopped having the insecurity or the fear that I would be an addict, because that's something that haunts you when your parents have destroyed your life over addiction. You don't want to be an addict of any kind. So much so, even, that I, when I was suffering from back problems and things that I've had in my life, I didn't take pills until a certain point in time, and then I'd give them all life. I didn't take pills until a certain point in time, and then I'd give them all away because I was afraid of, you know, the Vicodins and the oxycodones and all those things. I'm operating my entire existence off of my father's not wanting to be my dad, so he was still very present in my life because of my fear and the connection to his addiction. So in a way, my life was crumbling too because of his addiction, if that makes sense yeah, so it shows you how opposite yeah it can.
Speaker 2:Addiction can affect all of us, yeah and and I think part of addiction and just the, the susceptibility we all have to it is because we all experience pain.
Speaker 2:To your point earlier, pain is the driver of what makes us want to escape in different ways, whether we're talking about escaping the pain of a family that you weren't taking care of because of your father's addiction, whether it's the pain of other things in your life and your trauma, whether it's the pain of not knowing how to connect emotionally with women in a certain way. And you go into these addictions because of the pain. And when you deal with that and I'll speak for myself when you deal with that, you do whatever can protect you, and usually the thing that can protect you feels like the thing that's constant, right, so I'll just push everyone away, I'll just, you know, chase after this thing. And it makes so much sense to me as you're talking about this, because it's a two-edged sword. It's it's also sometimes the same thing that gives us success in other areas in our life as a man right, that's right.
Speaker 2:That discipline that I'm gonna push it away, I'm gonna focus on this probably allowed you to get some places. You know you're drinking, put you in certain circles right and you use it.
Speaker 2:You, of course, but you were also someone who could be around and you start to associate that that, the way you respond to pain with these addictions, as the thing that's making you successful, and I think for me you know you asked me earlier about you know how do you really address some of these addictions that feel like they're overpowering you.
Speaker 2:You really have to change that definition of what it means to be you, like when you were saying earlier, like I am, you know, an alcoholic right, and why can't you say this to the people who are closest to you? I mean, the reason is shame. But when we talk about shame, and especially as men, shame. But when we talk about shame and especially as men, um, I think part of it is how can we connect with other men in ways that don't bring shame up? There's this thing called shame attenuation, where you ask questions in a certain way so it doesn't bring shame. We sometimes keep things so close and or on our own journey that we don't realize that when we share our pain, then it normalizes other people's people make it right.
Speaker 1:I'm telling you like I understand what we're talking about, but me going into a work environment, friend environment and telling people not soap boxing, but just I think a word that we're that we haven't discussed, and I hope that we get to, is vulnerability, and I think with side of yes, modern masculinity, we've allowed ourselves to have a sense of vulnerability inside of there. That shit opens up the doors for so many other people, the floodgates.
Speaker 3:I've gotten the random texts they're like so what was the name of that therapist?
Speaker 1:again, hey man, I think I've been drinking a little bit too much. When did you start to cue in? You know what I mean? You're getting the questions now, but realizing, why are you asking me? Me and I'm realizing. Oh no, I opened up enough of a door. Maybe I just cracked a window where they don't feel as scared to be like so how many drinks were you having a day, or you know I mean how much remember I was at work one time and these guys were talking about oh how much did you spend on liquor a week?
Speaker 1:like a couple hundred bucks. I was like I wish, like you know what I mean, like I wish, like I wish really, but it was to your point. I was so addicted to drinking that I became addicted to working because I needed the money to drink to drink, find it yeah, I didn't want to change my lifestyle.
Speaker 1:I'm having too much fun, I'm at too many parties, too many girls, there's too much shit going on that I enjoy. Why would I? I don't have a problem until, like you said, you take a step back and go, but I'm prioritizing the wrong thing, so to your point having.
Speaker 1:Not that this anybody else's responsibility, but I wish there would have been maybe somebody in my life that had been like let me come and share not an anecdotal, anecdotal thing, but let me tell you where I was, or let me see the traits that you're having, that I've already experienced yeah it'd been much more eye-opening. I think that's what it was is when I went to the rehab facility and I saw success and I was like oh, this, this, this iseted.
Speaker 1:This ain't got nothing to do with socioeconomic status, this ain't got nothing to do with environmental factors. People deal with things, but when you push it away for too long it's going to bubble up and you just better hope you catch it. You better hope you catch it before it's gone all the way south.
Speaker 3:And most often we don't catch it, you know, because we don't have the discipline to navigate out of these things before they become boulders in our lives.
Speaker 1:The woman that's very close to me, that I love dearly, who's opened up a safe space friendships you know what I mean. I've even looked at my relationships with other people and been able to communicate with my son's mother in a better way and not jumping off that it's like, oh, we have to parent.
Speaker 3:Like, let me listen to you.
Speaker 2:Let me listen to yeah, let me listen, now that you're no longer.
Speaker 1:We're not in a in a romantic or or yeah, I guess romantic relationship, but we have to be partners in raising this kid like let me listen to what you're actually saying, because now I'm sober to actually pay attention and understand. She'll say I've already told you this, I go when, when.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we talk about this.
Speaker 1:She's like wow but understanding, oh, this is my accountability, my responsibility to have to take and listen and understand. I can't continuously apologize for the past, but what I can do is not repeat it, and I think that's what's most important in what we talked about man is not. Is understanding looking at ourself in the face in the mirror and going, okay, even if I've done these things, to do them. That's beautiful.
Speaker 3:It seems to me like you are at a very beautiful place in your life and your story, all of our stories, will help a lot of men dig themselves out of a hole because, as we started the conversation about responsibility, accountability it is our responsibility as men and one of the cues that you've given so many times in here was that you've been, you were open to someone really seeing you for where you were, where you were in that moment, and I think that's a very important and valuable thing for us as a culture of men to understand that when you see your brother suffering or you have a hint about something that may be a problem or issue in another brother's life, it is our responsibility to be accountable to one another, because that's what life is about.
Speaker 2:What would you have wanted others to do? Say, or really just um break that wall to, to move that forward that's a phenomenal question I think, it's something that everybody overlooks that there's.
Speaker 1:It's not a responsibility to somebody's addiction, but I think when you care about somebody or have compassion, especially empathy because you might not be able to understand addicts, are one of the smartest, most well adverse or well adapted, well-versed intellectual people you're ever going to meet because you can put them anywhere. They're going to find their drug of choice. Like they're not, they're going to get what they find a way to get what they need, yeah and it's about being self-aware and I think what happens a lot of times.
Speaker 1:There's two ways to answer your question. The first is, to me, the wrong way is people will approach it from a selfish need. I want you to get sober, be sober because of or I want to face your addiction because of me and how it's affected me.
Speaker 1:You said something earlier that was super, super, super poignant and I wanted to get to touch on it. You said something in this conversation I want to touch on addicts. We're very good at pushing you away too. If you get in our way of what we want to do. If I find out you're going to be a problem, then no, I don't want to approach you with a conversation. I'm going to make sure I keep you at enough of a distance that now you're never going to know that drink. Now I'm going to have you completely pushed over here where you're not going to be a part of my life to the me access to booze are you going to keep? You know what I mean. You're just pointing out a problem, but I think, when it comes to how do you talk to somebody you care about is one getting into an environment. That isn't going to be something that's super uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people make the mistake of I don't want to go to the bar with you because I know how to talk to you. It's like that's where I feel most comfortable. I Come here into my world and then don't go shame it, but be like. What are we doing here? When you go, hold that mirror up, I'm telling you, addicts will start to go. What are you talking about?
Speaker 3:What are we doing here?
Speaker 1:Why are we here so many days out the week? Why are you here so many days out the week? And you can ease into a conversation that, when you follow up the conversation, remember what we talked about, somebody's much more easily available to be like no, I don't remember what we talked about. Tell me again. We had a conversation about how you were saying maybe you're drinking too much. Let me offer up a different activity that we can go do, because that's all your is. The time is there. I don't really want to drink something. You know what I mean or I noticed.
Speaker 1:but if you come at it as I've identified a problem and you don't have a solution, Okay, well, watch this, go stand over there and then we're never going to talk about it again. Opposed to come and meeting somebody and don't make it the first agenda to be like we don't get you sober today. That's not realistic.
Speaker 3:Is. Is there a right and wrong way to do it? I guess is ultimately what I'm trying to figure out, because what we don't want to do for certain is do something that's going to push someone deeper into their hole, like, for instance, with my dad. I know our pressure to make him sober. What about me? All the stuff that we did in our interventions and all these ridiculous things and I do mean they were ridiculous to try to get him to to sober up, get him to to sober up. It pushed him further and he told me later in life, decade later or so, that the pressure that we put on him was the reason why he and not us, you know, but the pressure that life gave him was the reason he was an addict in the first place, and then you're just adding to it and you're just adding to.
Speaker 3:So after this friction, first thing he goes do and go get a hit, you know. So you're making it worse in a way. Sometimes right.
Speaker 1:It's also about, like you said, I don't know if there's a right or wrong way, but speaking from experience, it's. Why are you also what? Why'd you open up the door? What are you doing? That door's shut like that. My drinking is over here. Why are you bringing it to this light? Like I said, you're not meeting me at the place that I'm at mentally physically emotionally.
Speaker 1:You don't wait to invite me over to your house and call me out. Well, of course I'm going to be on the defense and, like you're saying, if you keep putting pressure on an addict, we already have our escape. So put that pressure on me. You just gave me the excuse to go drink. I'm not going to look at you, you're giving me hell. Oh, you hate me, oh you can't. But man, they coming at me, they talking I'm a piece of shit, I'm this, that and the third, and the bartender, because the funniest thing is it makes it worse.
Speaker 1:It just makes it worse because the funniest thing is addict. We never go. Well, who said this to you? It's just up here you're just spinning this narrative. But when somebody comes at you with compassion and another buddy one time, like I said, we sat there, we got we and he just went. Why are we still drinking? I was like what you mean? He goes, ain't nobody here, what are we still doing here?
Speaker 3:I'm like, oh man, like you know, because it's that self-realization I think once people become self-realized, they can self-actualize and go get the help that they need this has been a really insightful conversation, so thank you guys so much for this, and I know this is going to be so helpful to so many of our viewers and listeners. And if you have a issue with substance abuse yourself, we're going to provide more often with our loved ones and our family members. So I hope, as you're listening to this episode and watching us, it will inspire you to do something for not only yourself, but also the people you love. A few things that we brought up in this episode that were very pertinent and important to take away is accountability, responsibility, choices and just making sure that you check in on yourself and checking in on other people. This is Goodfellas.
Speaker 3:I'd like to thank you guys personally for watching today's episode, and I'd also like to ask you to spread the word about our community. We're small and we're mighty, but we're healing and growing as men, and thank you in advance for helping share that. I'd also like to thank Dr Isaiah Pickens for coming through and just being a brother, being a sounding board and a friend, and everybody needs that in their life. So if you want to help us keep the conversation going or if you need to have a chat yourself, you can always reach out to us on our Facebook, our Instagram or our TikTok. Fellas, let's grow.
